What could be done to improve the Elite Carbine?

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Ebola
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Re: What could be done to improve the Elite Carbine?

Postby Ebola » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:13 pm

TheTinyPebble wrote:I very much disagree that Carbineers need AP3, they need a much better AP2 than the laser rifle. This could be the elite carbine, but this doesn't solve the carbineer problem. Having one or two AP2s to choose from (one energy, one acid or heat perhaps) would be quite handy.

The biggest issue with carbineer is that they pretty much need BH to be functional. Carbineers themselves lack speed (65 speed total, come on) and the BH specials are actually better than the Carbineer specials. Carbineer without BH is a lackluster profession.

Bring the Carbineer specials up on par with rifleman damage to account for the lower AP as well. Rifleman are *pure* damage dealers, AP3 and AoE with a 5x damage multiplier, no other profession gets this. Carbineers are not pure damage dealers, they are meant to apply state and support, and they are good at it, jedi are just better (and abundant). Thus Carbineers have no real role in a group setting, which isn't really defined in SWG either.

Another issue is the way KD works, a BH/Carbineer (because you need to) has 4 different KD skills, but can only apply KD every 30s still.

I drifted a bit from the topic I think, since I think my paragraph pretty much answered the topic question. Giving Carbineers AP3 won't fix the problems with Carbineers, just mask it. Let's fix the underlying problems with the profession as a whole instead.


- More speed is always good.
- It doesn't matter to me if they have AP3 or not, as long as they are on par with a rifleman.
- specials won't make matter much if their damage is increased. You'll likely mainly be using leg shot and your AoE. Similar to a rifleman mostly using head shot and strafe.

I understand your argument that rifleman are meant to be pure damage dealers. But let's be honest, you can stack enough defenses behind it to be very solid and still take xxx4 marksman to have an area and single stun, an area and single dizzy, a single target posture down and intimidate. So it's fair to say riflemen (or any ranged class) are also very good at applying states.

I still feel the same about Fencer, TK, Pikeman and Pistols.
The only problem I realized is, if TK damage is on par with swordsman, it will be the new go to because they can hit all 3 pools and have a lot more toughness.

I drifted as well, let me just say, the underlying problem with Carbs, fencer, TK, pikes and pistols is they are not damage dealers and that is pretty much all you need in SWG.
You can reinvent the wheel and try to make the game mechanics fit the professions. But I would prefer to make the professions fit the game mechanics.
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Re: What could be done to improve the Elite Carbine?

Postby Ebola » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:20 pm

seant8 wrote: putting the damage in the middle of pistols and rifles as it should be.


This is the line of thinking I don't understand. Why does it have to be higher damage than pistols, lower damage than rifles.
It would make sense if they didn't all hit once per second, but they do. Changing rifles/swords to be slower will drive players from the server, me included.
Why can't they just hit as hard as rifles? What would that change?
That's a genuine question because I feel like Im missing something since no custom server has ever done it and it seems like a very simple way to balance the profession. It seems so simple I feel like maybe Im missing something.
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Re: What could be done to improve the Elite Carbine?

Postby seant8 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:24 pm

Ebola wrote:
seant8 wrote: putting the damage in the middle of pistols and rifles as it should be.


This is the line of thinking I don't understand. Why does it have to be higher damage than pistols, lower damage than rifles.
It would make sense if they didn't all hit once per second, but they do. Changing rifles/swords to be slower will drive players from the server, me included.
Why can't they just hit as hard as rifles? What would that change?
That's a genuine question because I feel like Im missing something since no custom server has ever done it and it seems like a very simple way to balance the profession. It seems so simple I feel like maybe Im missing something.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling for any nerfs whatsoever for any other profession. I would also be happy as can be to be doing the same damage as a rifleman. I do not, however, want to make any suggestions to HK or Etas that will immediately be shot down and disregarded. They have limited development time and I want to suggest improvements they are willing to invest time in to improve carbineer as much as possible.
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Re: What could be done to improve the Elite Carbine?

Postby seant8 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:43 pm

I will drop the AP2 request from the Slug Thrower. There doesn't seem to be too many instances where I feel like I wish I had some badass kinetic damage to deal out, lol. I'm going to make an official suggestion in the appropriate forum and start a new thread here to discuss Tiny's and Tsion's comments on the Carbineer skill tree.
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Re: What could be done to improve the Elite Carbine?

Postby Ebola » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:50 pm

seant8 wrote:
Ebola wrote:
seant8 wrote: putting the damage in the middle of pistols and rifles as it should be.


This is the line of thinking I don't understand. Why does it have to be higher damage than pistols, lower damage than rifles.
It would make sense if they didn't all hit once per second, but they do. Changing rifles/swords to be slower will drive players from the server, me included.
Why can't they just hit as hard as rifles? What would that change?
That's a genuine question because I feel like Im missing something since no custom server has ever done it and it seems like a very simple way to balance the profession. It seems so simple I feel like maybe Im missing something.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling for any nerfs whatsoever for any other profession. I would also be happy as can be to be doing the same damage as a rifleman. I do not, however, want to make any suggestions to HK or Etas that will immediately be shot down and disregarded. They have limited development time and I want to suggest improvements they are willing to invest time in to improve carbineer as much as possible.


No my bad. I knew you weren't calling for nerfs.
I'm saying the only fix is a nerf (bring rifle speeds down) or a buff (bring carbs and pistol damage up) and no one wants a nerf.

The issue is, if the damage dealing has a hierarchy, rifles > carbs > pistols
Then I would prefer not to have a carbs or pistols build in my group. Why would I? They offer nothing the rifleman doesn't bring to the table and the rifleman deals more damage.

Same argument with swords > pikes > fencer > TK

Im proposing rifle = carb = pistol
I know its a bit of a derailment of your thread, but Ive been thinking this since I first started on custom servers a few years ago.
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Re: What could be done to improve the Elite Carbine?

Postby seant8 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:09 pm

New topic for Carbine Specials Damage: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1507
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Re: What could be done to improve the Elite Carbine?

Postby Skolten » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:45 am

Sorry for bringing this old thread to life, but its important!

Carbines should have high speed and hit for less than a rifle. A rifle should have less speed and hit higher.

Carbines should not need bh to be effective.

I approve above changes to the carbines, with added speed to master carbineer.
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