Carbine Damage Discussion

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seant8
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Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby seant8 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:05 pm

This is a continuation of a discussion on improving Carbineer special attack damage that sprung up while talking about carbine stat improvements. I'd like to discuss that here and see if it results in a concise suggestion to make to HK and Etas. There are some references to pistols as well, however, I would prefer that someone passionate about playing a pistoleer, pistoleer/smuggler, or pistoleer/BH take the reigns on discussing pistol specials in that forum. My dog is in the BH/Carbineer fight and that's where I want to make suggestons.

Ebola wrote:Carbineer received some love. Still don't see many (any?) Carbineers running around.
Until they have a weapon whose damage is on par with a T-21 with ap3, you won't see many more than you do now.
That's all they need.
I'm not a fan of the "well they get crowd control" argument. So does any ranged class that takes xxx4 Marksman. The most powerful form of crowd control comes at novice brawler.

Honestly, anytime I see a pistoleer or Carbineer show up to a WB, I dont count them among the damage dealers.
Same goes for fencers and TKs.

Why no custom server has decided to put these professions on par with swords/rifles is beyond me.
It would literally have almost no effect on PvP, everyone would still choose rifles because of the 64m head shot with stun damage. And the 64m death blow. Or Jedi for the unmitigated damage type.

The only thing it would do is open up the viability of some forever gimped classes and make them not be shunned in a dungeon group/WB


TheTinyPebble wrote:I very much disagree that Carbineers need AP3, they need a much better AP2 than the laser rifle. This could be the elite carbine, but this doesn't solve the carbineer problem. Having one or two AP2s to choose from (one energy, one acid or heat perhaps) would be quite handy.

The biggest issue with carbineer is that they pretty much need BH to be functional. Carbineers themselves lack speed (65 speed total, come on) and the BH specials are actually better than the Carbineer specials. Carbineer without BH is a lackluster profession.

Bring the Carbineer specials up on par with rifleman damage to account for the lower AP as well. Rifleman are *pure* damage dealers, AP3 and AoE with a 5x damage multiplier, no other profession gets this. Carbineers are not pure damage dealers, they are meant to apply state and support, and they are good at it, jedi are just better (and abundant). Thus Carbineers have no real role in a group setting, which isn't really defined in SWG either.

Another issue is the way KD works, a BH/Carbineer (because you need to) has 4 different KD skills, but can only apply KD every 30s still.

I drifted a bit from the topic I think, since I think my first paragraph pretty much answered the topic question. Giving Carbineers AP3 won't fix the problems with Carbineers, just mask it. Let's fix the underlying problems with the profession as a whole instead.


Ebola wrote:- More speed is always good.
- It doesn't matter to me if they have AP3 or not, as long as they are on par with a rifleman.
- specials won't make matter much if their damage is increased. You'll likely mainly be using leg shot and your AoE. Similar to a rifleman mostly using head shot and strafe.

I understand your argument that rifleman are meant to be pure damage dealers. But let's be honest, you can stack enough defenses behind it to be very solid and still take xxx4 marksman to have an area and single stun, an area and single dizzy, a single target posture down and intimidate. So it's fair to say riflemen (or any ranged class) are also very good at applying states.

I still feel the same about Fencer, TK, Pikeman and Pistols.
The only problem I realized is, if TK damage is on par with swordsman, it will be the new go to because they can hit all 3 pools and have a lot more toughness.

I drifted as well, let me just say, the underlying problem with Carbs, fencer, TK, pikes and pistols is they are not damage dealers and that is pretty much all you need in SWG.
You can reinvent the wheel and try to make the game mechanics fit the professions. But I would prefer to make the professions fit the game mechanics.


Ebola wrote:
seant8 wrote: putting the damage in the middle of pistols and rifles as it should be.


This is the line of thinking I don't understand. Why does it have to be higher damage than pistols, lower damage than rifles.
It would make sense if they didn't all hit once per second, but they do. Changing rifles/swords to be slower will drive players from the server, me included.
Why can't they just hit as hard as rifles? What would that change?
That's a genuine question because I feel like Im missing something since no custom server has ever done it and it seems like a very simple way to balance the profession. It seems so simple I feel like maybe Im missing something.
The issue is, if the damage dealing has a hierarchy, rifles > carbs > pistols
Then I would prefer not to have a carbs or pistols build in my group. Why would I? They offer nothing the rifleman doesn't bring to the table and the rifleman deals more damage.

Same argument with swords > pikes > fencer > TK

Im proposing rifle = carb = pistol
I know its a bit of a derailment of your thread, but Ive been thinking this since I first started on custom servers a few years ago.
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Re: Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby seant8 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:23 pm

How much speed should be added to the Carbineer trees? Should it speed capped at master the same as Carbineer/BH?
Should any carbineer specials be upped to a 5.0 damage multiplier? If so, which ones?
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Re: Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby Marcellus » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:00 pm

crippling shot is already 5x
mCarb +25 speed in tapes, or necklace + +15 in tapes (both easy) cap all carbi specials (excluding BH specials) with a 5.2 speed weapon
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Re: Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby TheTinyPebble » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:15 pm

Actually, you'd need a 3.4s weapon. Carbineer has 60 speed from master only, I remembered it wrong. Crippling shot is a single target random damage pool, compared to riflemans 5x AoE.
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Re: Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby seant8 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:33 pm

Rifleman get +90 speed at master, and I believe they do require some tapes plus MM to speed cap everything. It seems to me it would be reasonable to bump Carbineer to +75 speed at master since carbines are a bit faster than rifles. They could get MM and/or BH to speed cap, or would need fewer tapes. Does that break or take away anything for other ranged professions?
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Re: Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby Skolten » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:27 am

I would suggest similar changes as with pikeman. Increase damage of specials and increase speed of Master Carbineer. I want to be able to combine Carbineer with other professions, not only BH.

Unless you normalize HAM damage, its been done on a private server before. All specials randomly hit health, mind or action with a higher chance to hit one of the pools. Bleeds can stay like they are, but direct hitting specials randomly hit all pools with a higher chance of mind for a head attack, higher chance of action for a leg attack and higher chance of health for a body attack.

Then all professions are useful again.
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Re: Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby Skolten » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:34 am

I am currently making a Master Pikeman/Master Carbineer build that i have high hopes for. Carbineer needs some more love, but these two action hitting classes together will make it a great hybrid build for solo & pvp, but still useless for group play as im not hitting mind. Above suggestion would make any class combination useful again!
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Re: Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby honkwomp » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:55 pm

Concerning TK damage.

The ability to med out wounds and bleeding is pretty powerful in my books.

That is the trade off for pure damage. If they ever fix the wound thing so that it goes past your base, anyone poisoned is screwed, except the TKM

Right now, if you are buffed, being having black on your bar is no threat, You know that you will still have the 3k HAM you got buffed on.

Pretty sure each class has that same kind of tradeoff, but do not know them well enough to say.
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Re: Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby HK47 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:26 pm

Oh wounds have side effects :)
New: Stamina and Constitution Wounds have a effect on the received DMG. At the moment dmg = dmg * (1+wounds/1500).

if you have 2 black bars that means often 2 * 500 = 1000/1500 thats additional 66% more Dmg that will come in with each hit

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Re: Carbine Damage Discussion

Postby Woha » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:49 am

My Opinnion is that no Profession should hit special attacks each secound.
Reduced Speed only with the compromise that the weapon have an lower dmg or the attack is a low dmg attack.

Means:
I want to hit the head... ok but I need longer to target it...
I do Area attack ok that goes faster but with lower dmg...

What I feels sometimes not happy that my best AP comes from Laser Carbine.
I like the EE3 much more and don't understand why they are differences... but this is my personal feeling.

Sorry for my bad english... I played SWG instead of learning :roll:


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